“Mandatory use of earphones when listening to music or watching shows/movies in public spaces.” This should be a rule EVERYWHERE! When did it become normal/acceptable to listen to your phone/tablet/laptop in public without earphones? I’m starting to see signs posted in more and more places reminding people to not do that — good, I guess, but sad that it’s necessary to tell people this. It bugs me the most when I’m out for a hike in a natural area and someone comes down the trail blasting their music.
And for what it’s worth, I haven’t noticed any race-based pattern of who does or doesn’t engage in this behavior — it’s equal-opportunity rudeness.
Totally agree. Bad manners are a matter of class, not race. Like you, I’ve seen just as many White people treating public spaces like private spaces. What bothers me is when Black people excuse a lack of class by claiming it’s tied to our “identity.” I can’t tolerate that.
White people excuse a lack of class by claiming it is tied to their identity too. (We brought class resentment with us from the British Isles.) It's called MAGA. To this white person, all the MAGA signalling is a doubling down on a certain class identity which gets them a ton of overt contempt from other white people.
They are excusing all kinds of immorality in the political arena because they conflate their identity with Trump's. Democrats are having an excruciatingly hard time communicating with MAGA voters as anything which touches on their identity ignites an immediately hostile reaction. See, e.g. the reports of the Kerr County Commissioners' Courts (county government) and citizens during public comment threatening their representative with being voted out if they took "Biden money" to upgrade high water emergency systems.
I can somewhat see what you are getting at with the first paragraph. The second paragraph concerns me though since it really plays into the 'us versus them' mentality.
I would argue that perhaps the perceived immorality is actually a delta in the competing moral frameworks. Democrats tend to follow a woke moral framework while MAGA tend to follow a Christian moral framework. Though each group sees quite a lot of diversity amongst their ranks, they both look at the other group as immoral.
You might be able to see that MAGA could write the same thing in regards to the Democrats, and they definitely demonstrate the same sentiment as expressed in some of the replies to your comment.
It’s about manners, some of the rudest (most egotistical) people I’ve met were from the “upper” class. And class bigotry against the poor and working class is dripping off your post.
If you had complained, I wonder if the flight attendant would have intervened, or would she be worried that she would be accused of discrimination? That’s what makes it tricky now.
I recall a few years ago a critically-acclaimed author (and a woman of color) was on the metro in DC and noticed a black employee eating on the train, which is against rules. She took a picture and posted it on social media with a complaint about metro employees violating their own rules, and she was immediately cancelled for making discriminatory comments. Her publisher even cancelled release of her book. Yet all she did was report behavior that shouldn’t be occurring.
It’s been tricky like this for a while. I know people who decades ago were reluctant to hire individuals of color, even if they seemed well qualified and a good fit, for fear of being accused of discrimination should they need to fire them later.
I do believe with all my heart that most people are good and decent. Most White employers just want the most qualified candidate, and most Black employees want to do a good job.
Unfortunately, people on the margins who misbehave — employers who discriminate and Black candidates who can’t or don’t perform — end up ruining it for everyone.
Right? If I had brought my family on one of those cruises and seen this kind of behavior, I would be lodging complaints with the staff daily and sending a letter to Carnival once we hit shore.
Normally I'd agree, but Carnival has always marketed themselves as the Party Boat and the Fun Ship. Seems to me, they need to rebrand if they want to implement these kind of rules.
Most of these seem pretty common sense to me in consideration of shared spaces and how you establish common courtesy. I can also see if you suddenly have people who have never cruised before, includes me, and don't know the difference between cruising and rockus beach partying at Easter break, there could be serious problems around expectations.
The fan thing is a mistake. I've never heard of this and could see why if this has become a thing in some of the black community , banning it could seen as targeting them.
I think the bigger problem is a culture where taking offense has become sport. That's a harder nut to crack.
I agree with you about first-time cruisers who might think the experience is basically Daytona Beach at sea.
The fan business is a little trickier, as you point out. But it’s not as if Carnival is choosing to shut down “Boots on the Ground” while still allowing other, similarly disruptive dances. And it’s not as though line dancing, itself, isn’t allowed; it’s the noise that accompanies it (from the fans) that’s at issue.
I think tolerance has limits in a pluralistic society. If a family from Papua New Guinea was “gifted” with a cruise to Cabo, would passengers be expected to look the other way if they showed up at the buffet in loincloths and the mother lounged by the pool bare-chested?
There is another situation where this difference of expectations is seen.
I volunteer for many of the theaters in SF, only way I can afford to see them, and there are plays that bring in an audience who have not been to theaters before and treat the experience the same way you would in a movie house. Bringing in crinkly bags of snacks that they open and rummage through during the play, talking to their companion ,going onto their phones. There is no sheet given out before hand as to what theater etiquette is expected. There is always a request to silence phones , but that is not always followed as you can see the lights popup through the theater.
I'm completely ignorant on the fan thing and didn't know it makes that much noise. The safety issue seems an incredible push.
I think the joy derived from taking offense is a major factor , but giving up the chance of $50 per seems a heavy price for that moment of self-righteous satisfaction. If my wife didn't get seriously seasick I'd look at $100 all inclusive cruise.
My son took his family on a carnival cruise out of New York last year. Their four kids were 7, 9 and twins 12. They have been raised in an orthodox Jewish home sheltered from the street language and culture of the world around them. We warned then about carnival
The cruise was a disaster for the kids. The black kids were unruly and fighting and every other word was f this f that etc.
This problem goes much deeper than what this writer is portraying. I’d go so far as to say it’s almost a whitewash of the issue. Carnival has dug themselves a deep hole.
I think she was being cautious in what is a tricky situation to discuss. It’s the teenagers and young adults who are going to be the problem. It really is an extension of Miami Beach party weekend on the boat and they came to party not to cruise. The spring break gatherings have become increasingly more difficult for cities to handle, and you can’t have people clear the area when you’re out at sea. That was predictable as they lowered the rates that much. No idea how they get out of this.
BTW please stop insulting Daytona Beach. It is a great year round vacation resort city which welcomes everyone. Once a year they have what’s called black bike week and then there are a couple of weeks of spring break all of which get pretty raucous but the police are very active and keep control.
I’m thinkin’ eventually an Olympic event done much like gymnastics. Different categories and degrees of difficulty as some situations to find offense are more difficult to achieve and stick the landing.
My belief is there's a militant activism running through society that wishes to annihilate all boundaries between individuals, and even if one tries to go somewhere else, the militant will follow and harass the non-compliant. We see this with dudes in dresses refusing to accept neutral bathrooms. Their goal is getting a thrill from women not being allowed to get away from them. I suggest Carnival Cruise have different rules for different cruises. One cruise could be open to loud music, wild parties, etc. Another cruise could be family or elderly oriented with stricter rules.
I also presume different rules for different cruises is the answer, presuming the upset demographic is profitable. Have like a Carnival Classic line and a Carnival Party How You Want At Everyone Else's Expense line ...
Sending out a pre- cruise list of non-acceptable behavior would certainly bring about some slimy grievance chasing lawyer with a "civil rights" or "first amendment" action. Carnival needs to go back to smaller ships and higher prices.
Your idea is a sensible one. However, from Carnival‘s perspective, catering to the preferences of the harder partying demographic could be a safety and liability nightmare they don’t want to deal with.
👏👏👏 A superb article that in a sane world would be in the New York Times or the Washington Post, Monica! I didn’t know about this story but sadly it doesn’t surprise me in this identity obsessed and racially divided country we live in today. Carnival Cruise Lines instituted common sense rules that have nothing to do with race or color but rather being courteous and considerate of other passengers. Being “ghetto” or “ratchet” has nothing to do with being black. I’ve met and observed people of all races who fit that description and black people who do not. Being loud, blaring rap music in the middle of the night, carrying around small personal fans that could injure others, smoking marijuana, etc. are all things that have nothing to do with being black but rather are just about being a decent human being.
Ironically, these rules actually are good for as Monica pointed out, other disadvantaged guests like the elderly, families with children or babies, those on the autism spectrum who might have sensory issues, or passengers who suffer from migraines for example. It is most certainly true that a totally neutral policy can have a disproportionate negative impact on a certain group. That is certainly valid but what is not valid to to extend that concept to personal behavior that effects the individual experience of others around them. Those two have nothing to do with each other. It’s hilarious how some online are having a stroke and acting like Carnival Cruise Lines just brought back racial segregation.
These new rules are fantastic and have zip to do with racism. We need to put a stop to the hypersensitivity and sense of entitlement that people in our society have these days. We need to stop seeing racism everywhere. Seeing racism in places where it doesn’t exist accomplishes nothing and helps no one. To the contrary, it’s quite destructive to our society and keeps minorities from being treated as individuals rather than as groups. On a side note, companies need to grow a spine and stop listening to the cranks on X and other social media platforms. As you said Monica, the people conflating certain behaviors with being black are actually the one’s being racist. They are perpetuating the very kind of racial stereotypes the heroes in the Civil Rights Movement fought against in the 1950s and 1960s. We need to do all we can as a society to stop with all these constant faux-racism controversies and crying bigotry every time people on X whine and complain about something trivial and throw around accusations of racial discrimination.
Here is a reading list I’ve prepared for anyone who may read this post so they can fight back against the hyper focus on race in American society we face today:
• Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America by John McWhorter
• Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America by John McWhorter
• A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches by Martin Luther King, Jr.
• Shame: How America’s Past Sins Have Polarized Our Country by Shelby Steele
• The End of Race Politics: Arguments for a Colorblind America by Coleman Hughes
• Social Justice Fallacies by Thomas Sowell
• Gods of the Upper Air: How a Circle of Renegade Anthropologists Reinvented Race, Sex, and Gender in the Twentieth Century by Charles King
• Zero Victim: Overcoming Injustice With a New Attitude by James E. Ward, Jr.
• The Raceless Antiracist: Why Ending Race is the Future of Antiracism by Sheena Mason
• Self-Portrait in Black and White: Unlearning Race by Thomas Chatterton Williams
• Racecraft: The Soul of Inequality in American Life by Barbara J. Fields and Karen E. Fields
• Passing Strange: A Gilded Age Tale of Love and Deception Across the Color Line by Martha A. Sandweiss
• Classified: The Untold Story of Racial Classification in America by David E. Bernstein
• Taboo: 10 Facts You Can’t Talk About by Wilfred Reilly
Nailed it Monica. Your analysis is spot-on and probably more generous that I would write. Lol
See i grew up poor and Black around Black people who were rachet before it was called rachet. But this mentality is way more widespread now than it was when I was growing up.
What offends me the most is something I've dealt with all my life as I've moved from poor to middle class: All Black people aren't the same yet Black people who defend this foolishness talk about as if Carnival is banning all Black people. This way of thinking has become more mainstream these days. I wouldn't never choose a Carnival cruise.
My wife and I went on a Royal Carribean cruise 15 years ago for our 15th anniversary. We heard about Carnival back then! Friends who knew we are Christian told us to avoid Carnival.
I respect Carnivals decision but as a former brand consultant, I would say they did a slight recalibration some years ago and 'Walmarted' their prices which is a race to the bottom. When a business lowers their prices really low to make more $$$, there is the potential to attract people with values are out of sync with their original audience. Wal Mart has done this and it's why Black friday shopping is usually a war zone at their stores. Much of the time, Target doesnt have this problem.
People choose Carnival because they are looking for excessive drinking, partying, loose sexual norms (pineapple anyone?) and lax standards on the cheap. This has been known for years. But Carnival is now seeing that this thrust by them during this time of polarization and racist pandering in American society is not helping them. As the pendulum is starting to swing back to a more conservative approach, Carnival is attempting to recalibrate but those addicted to identity politics are trying to prevent that. (Have you noticed that no high profile Democrats have touched this issue. That is telling.)
Amusement parks dealt with this same thing. They solved it by quietly pushing their prices back up some years ago and it solved most of the problem.
Thank you so much for your thoughts, Pastor Lee. We are definitely aligned. I was raised in a working class family that moved into the middle class, but I have some extended family who never made the trip. We always tried to distance ourselves from these elements because they didn’t reflect our values, or the values of most Black people. As you say, it’s so very sad that these values have proliferated and have now become associated with “Black identity,” and even deemed acceptable.
I am watching “The Gilded Age” on HBO and am struck by how different the Black community was after Reconstruction. We were vibrant, hard working, intelligent and ambitious. We had nuclear families and small businesses. We raised respectful and well-behaved children. My parents even recall the Black community being this way when they were growing up in the 50s.
But then something changed, and as far as I can tell it happened shortly after the Civil Rights Movement. Radical “civil rights” groups seemed to morph into gangs, and drugs flooded into Black communities (there are well-documented reports that this happened largely due to CIA operations).
The Black community has had to overcome a LOT. A helluva lot. We briefly recovered from slavery and we were starting to find our footing — but then we slipped, largely I believe to external players and forces. And we simply never recovered from that point on. Well-intentioned liberal policies encouraged and accelerated our community’s demise.
Knowing where we started, what was possible and how far we’ve fallen…brings tears to my eyes.
Agreed. The virtues of looking out for each other that sustained poor and working class Black communities since the late 60s in the NE U.S. have virtually disappeared. I would submit another piece of your historical analysis.
A Black underclass has always existed but because of segregation in the past, Blacks of various social classes lived in the same community. There was a mutual benefit especially for the lower classes. But after the Civil Rights movement and historic discriminatory laws were struck down, there was a White AND Black flight from big cities. The Black underclass grew in the 70s and 80s as a result. But the death knell was liberal welfare policies that further destroyed Black entrepreneurship and the Black family along with the Crack epidemic. Unfortunately I had a front row seat in North Philly and neighborhoods like mine either did not recover or gentrified. Its depressing to think about.
“A Black underclass has always existed but because of segregation in the past, Blacks of various social classes lived in the same community. There was a mutual benefit especially for the lower classes. But after the Civil Rights movement and historic discriminatory laws were struck down, there was a White AND Black flight from big cities. The Black underclass grew in the 70s and 80s as a result.”
Omg, you nailed it. That’s exactly what happened! Someone needs to write a book about this very issue: it takes a village to rehabilitate an enslaved race. Once upon a time, we had the resources to do that, but class mobility and Civil Rights — while desirable and well-intentioned — sabotaged out community support. Amazing insight, my friend.
I am concerned that urbanization and modern transit has allowed all classes to self select and effectively ghettoize, to the detriment of most communities. Far too much homogeneity in ethnicity, class, taste, religion, everything, in siloed communities and estates. And, most people in these places are highly mobile and don't form deep, lasting attachments. The death of mega malla and rise in online shopping means we don't even shop in the same places any more.
Small towns, at least before they died, meant everyone knew people from almost all backgrounds and walks of life. There may have been a wrong side of the tracks, but I'm truly small towns, it's only ever as couple of blocks away. Which means people are forced to see how others live, and interact with them, and ideally form opinions of them based on their personal qualities rather than a stereotype.
This rarely happens in large urban areas today. And less and less as time goes on. Now we fracture into opinion and interest based online communities and venture out less often. Really, our communities are those we engage with online, and those we work with. Neither provide a good substitute for a broader community.
Really excellent points, James. I agree there seems to be a class element at work here that has affected Black and White communities and led to a steady widening gap of culture and decorum. And you’re spot on about small towns and the “wrong” side of the tracks. Years ago, people on both sides of the tracks still knew and in some ways interacted with each other. But that doesn’t happen anymore. Now people of different classes often live many miles away from each other.
Do you know if anyone has addressed this issue in a book or article? I find the implications fascinating. It explains so much of the social deterioration we’re seeing.
I have had limited contact with black people in my life, but I have observed that they seem to often be much more of their place and community than others, with more time dedicated to relationships that are less transactional. Part of that may be cultural, part of that may be what happens when poverty and lack of opportunity keep people where they were born.
I responded further down thread with my thoughts, similar to yours, on fracturing of communities in general. Your insights are fascinating.
Reliable word on the street on Carnival cruises is if you see someone wearing anything with a pineapple on it or a pineapple on the cabin door, they are swingers looking for action.
I hadnt heard about any of this. Thank you. As you note the issues here are more about how we live with and respect one another than behavior on a cruise. Stereotyping should never be accepted.
You say 'stereotyping', I say 'recognizing patterns of behavior'. You say 'engaging in behavior that fuels negative stereotypes', I say 'acting ghetto'.
Stereotyping is basic human psychology. It's a shortcut meant to protect us from danger when reaction time isn't fast enough. It provides a valuable survival mechanism. There is no way to put an end to it.
I agree with you to an extent. I live in a rural area and notice that animals (particularly those who are likely to be prey) “stereotype” all the time when they attempt to avoid predators. Ultimately, humans are just higher level animals, so I understand that some degree of stereotyping is inevitable for the reason you give.
But greed, list, jealousy, anger, etc are also part of basic human psychology. As humans, I think our goal should be to behave a higher level than most animals — resisting the hard wiring that makes us behave badly or that doesn’t serve us. We’re not living in caves and beating competing tribes off with clubs and sticks anymore. We don’t need to engage in Stone Age stereotyping to protect ourselves from danger. There’s a difference between stereotyping someone walking behind you when you’re alone on a city street at night and stereotyping when you’re hiring someone for a job. There’s a survival instinct at play in the former, but not the latter.
Every emotion you have is the result of millions of years of evolution, and serve a purpose. We haven't outgrown the need for any of them, even if being civilized means we don't automatically react to them. And society isn't nearly as civilized as you seem to think; it's a very thin veneer that will disappear with very little stimulus.
But the advances we have achieved rapidly are very much due to our ability to control our instincts to a large degree, and learn to look beyond stereotypes. It has left us at a state of cultural evolution that is at odds with our base instincts. True, we can regress very quickly. But I think we'd all much rather not, and attempt to treat each other on considered merits rather than base instincts.
This is what bothers me about the Carnival situation: people chose to go on a vacation, no one was in danger, and chaos was chosen to the detriment of everyone. This policy is not discriminatory, it is a reminder that we have personal autonomy over ourselves.
That the Section 8 cruise community will use the "race card" to defend their incivility and barbarity is no surprise. It's what they've been doing for decades. Just look at the YT videos at airports and restaurants.
From a British perspective this is interesting, as apart from a few music events in a few cities this new "I do what I like" behaviour is class-coded here, not race-coded.
So on our beaches, and our budget airlines, lots of problems with excess drinking, noise, explicit sexual behaviour, aggressive behaviour if challenged, all from what we would call "chavs", the working-class men and women (of any race but majority white) who flaunt their ignorance and push all the boundaries. The outrage is part of the fun.
Funny thing, it used to be the upper-class young men who would behave appallingly in public, drinking to excess, groping waitresses and urinating in the street, only to say "don't you know who I am?" if challenged by any authority. The chavs however, will start shouting about their "human rights" being denied, as their entitlement is based on their sense that society owes them whatever they fancy because they are "ordinary workers" (many don't work). These are the people who come to the public park, eat and drink all day, and then leave every bit of rubbish behind them. They are loathed.
Re the music events, some Black artists have been denied music licenses here because their fans are habitually violent and their events often involve fighting and stabbings. The "gangsta" culture travels.
The "oppression olympics" hands out medals of entitlement. The more 'oppressed' you are, the more entitlement you carry. Kinda weird when you think about it.
Social media and reality TV is imposing a new standard on the issue of public behavior. Instead of people expecting they must defer to a baseline of conduct which allows everyone to have the peaceful enjoyment of public spaces, they are overtly reacting should anything at all upset their apple cart. People, usually under the age of 40, expect that anything which offends their subjective sensibilities is the greatest possible outrage!
They take everything personally. They don't see that anyone else has any rights. This is leading to a lot of unnecessary conflict and drama. But online behavior thrives on unnecessary conflict and drama. I wonder how many young people finding themselves in a bind in the real world don't realize they got in that bind because the online standard is completely unworkable in real life.
This is so true! Having worked in business affairs at a cable network for many years (where I helped creative execs produce unscripted/reality programming), I can attest that networks actively sought out low class behavior on these shows. The more loud, crass and embarassing participants were, the better. They found it funny and entertaining to watch these people degrade themselves and each other. Shocking and outrageous behavior drew eyeballs -- especially in the Black community -- and that's all that really mattered. In the effort to "cater" to a Black audience, I felt the network was actually reinforcing negative stereotypes and undermining efforts to advance opportunity. As the only senior Black executive on the team, I remember raising my concerns and having them ignored. It was incredibly frustrating and ultimately one of the reasons I left the network.
The bigger picture: creative execs eventually extended this same low class, uncouth, foul-mouthed model to White participants. Looking back, I think reality TV did tremendous damage to our society, especially among young people who look to Hollywood and pop culture for guidance on behavior, habits, values, etc. Hollywood really needs to take responsibility for the negative influence it's had on our soicety, at large. That's why it irks me when they take the moral high ground and insist on DEI standards that often sabotage the work they're claiming to do. I think leaders in media/entertainment are too out of touch to have such positions of power and influence on our culture. Whether they realize it or not, they're dangerous.
The objections to the new rules as "anti-black" are EXTREMELY racist! As if "black" people are incapable of behaving like adults. With friends like these...
Very well written article. I was on one Carnival cruise back in 2008 as part of my honeymoon and have never cruised since or desired to. The atmosphere was very chill and quiet but it still was not my thing. Do you see this as similar to what some Florida cities have tried to enact after decades of spring break trashing? My last spring break trip as a college kid was 1996. Some of those big named cities of the early 90’s are no longer spring break destination spots because of stricter enactment of laws from what I understand. As to the new Carnival conduct standards, the thought of “spring break on a ship in the middle of the sea” in 2025 or 2026 is probably the last thing I’d ever want to experience if I wanted to have a family vacation.
Same! Carnival Cruise for my honeymoon in 2002 and never been on a cruise since. I’m no prude and I love a couple glasses of wine, but holy cow the over-the-top drunkenness on the cruise was disgusting to me.
As long as the "rules" are applied and enforced equitably ship wide, without regard to race and/or gender; they seem like fairly implemented guidelines for civil behavior.
Regarding cannabis; weed ain't legal in quite a few jurisdictions. Penalties can be much more severe than in the USA.
Good question, I'm sure you could Google a learned explanation. I would suggest it comes from without and within. What traditions did we grow up with, what beliefs about god, or God, what beliefs about man, about pain and suffering, about ethics. From within; how does a person answer those questions based on their own questioning, based on response to their own internal conscience. There are few outliers in any homogeneous society
It is easier to see the results of culture, and why it matters.
Might be true if you're a materialist; I'm not. Certainly, genetics plays a role in many things, including skin and hair color, and intelligence. That's a big leap from assigning fate to moral issues. I have far more respect for people than that because I believe, and evidence supports, that people are endowed by their Creator with moral intuition. We all know basic right and wrong. Acceptance or rejection of that drives the moral components of culture. No one is genetically coded to be a thief, a murderer or an asshole.
“Mandatory use of earphones when listening to music or watching shows/movies in public spaces.” This should be a rule EVERYWHERE! When did it become normal/acceptable to listen to your phone/tablet/laptop in public without earphones? I’m starting to see signs posted in more and more places reminding people to not do that — good, I guess, but sad that it’s necessary to tell people this. It bugs me the most when I’m out for a hike in a natural area and someone comes down the trail blasting their music.
And for what it’s worth, I haven’t noticed any race-based pattern of who does or doesn’t engage in this behavior — it’s equal-opportunity rudeness.
Totally agree. Bad manners are a matter of class, not race. Like you, I’ve seen just as many White people treating public spaces like private spaces. What bothers me is when Black people excuse a lack of class by claiming it’s tied to our “identity.” I can’t tolerate that.
White people excuse a lack of class by claiming it is tied to their identity too. (We brought class resentment with us from the British Isles.) It's called MAGA. To this white person, all the MAGA signalling is a doubling down on a certain class identity which gets them a ton of overt contempt from other white people.
They are excusing all kinds of immorality in the political arena because they conflate their identity with Trump's. Democrats are having an excruciatingly hard time communicating with MAGA voters as anything which touches on their identity ignites an immediately hostile reaction. See, e.g. the reports of the Kerr County Commissioners' Courts (county government) and citizens during public comment threatening their representative with being voted out if they took "Biden money" to upgrade high water emergency systems.
I can somewhat see what you are getting at with the first paragraph. The second paragraph concerns me though since it really plays into the 'us versus them' mentality.
I would argue that perhaps the perceived immorality is actually a delta in the competing moral frameworks. Democrats tend to follow a woke moral framework while MAGA tend to follow a Christian moral framework. Though each group sees quite a lot of diversity amongst their ranks, they both look at the other group as immoral.
You might be able to see that MAGA could write the same thing in regards to the Democrats, and they definitely demonstrate the same sentiment as expressed in some of the replies to your comment.
Shut up retard
It’s about manners, some of the rudest (most egotistical) people I’ve met were from the “upper” class. And class bigotry against the poor and working class is dripping off your post.
You really are retarded.
If you had complained, I wonder if the flight attendant would have intervened, or would she be worried that she would be accused of discrimination? That’s what makes it tricky now.
I recall a few years ago a critically-acclaimed author (and a woman of color) was on the metro in DC and noticed a black employee eating on the train, which is against rules. She took a picture and posted it on social media with a complaint about metro employees violating their own rules, and she was immediately cancelled for making discriminatory comments. Her publisher even cancelled release of her book. Yet all she did was report behavior that shouldn’t be occurring.
It’s been tricky like this for a while. I know people who decades ago were reluctant to hire individuals of color, even if they seemed well qualified and a good fit, for fear of being accused of discrimination should they need to fire them later.
Sadly, I can see this happening.
I do believe with all my heart that most people are good and decent. Most White employers just want the most qualified candidate, and most Black employees want to do a good job.
Unfortunately, people on the margins who misbehave — employers who discriminate and Black candidates who can’t or don’t perform — end up ruining it for everyone.
I’m not sure what the solution is…
Yeah, I didn’t know anything about this either. This is damned interesting.
There’s absolutely nothing unreasonable about those rules.
Right? If I had brought my family on one of those cruises and seen this kind of behavior, I would be lodging complaints with the staff daily and sending a letter to Carnival once we hit shore.
Victim mentality plus identity obsession equals absurdity.
None of us were born to be mediocre.
Normally I'd agree, but Carnival has always marketed themselves as the Party Boat and the Fun Ship. Seems to me, they need to rebrand if they want to implement these kind of rules.
Most of these seem pretty common sense to me in consideration of shared spaces and how you establish common courtesy. I can also see if you suddenly have people who have never cruised before, includes me, and don't know the difference between cruising and rockus beach partying at Easter break, there could be serious problems around expectations.
The fan thing is a mistake. I've never heard of this and could see why if this has become a thing in some of the black community , banning it could seen as targeting them.
I think the bigger problem is a culture where taking offense has become sport. That's a harder nut to crack.
I agree with you about first-time cruisers who might think the experience is basically Daytona Beach at sea.
The fan business is a little trickier, as you point out. But it’s not as if Carnival is choosing to shut down “Boots on the Ground” while still allowing other, similarly disruptive dances. And it’s not as though line dancing, itself, isn’t allowed; it’s the noise that accompanies it (from the fans) that’s at issue.
I think tolerance has limits in a pluralistic society. If a family from Papua New Guinea was “gifted” with a cruise to Cabo, would passengers be expected to look the other way if they showed up at the buffet in loincloths and the mother lounged by the pool bare-chested?
There is another situation where this difference of expectations is seen.
I volunteer for many of the theaters in SF, only way I can afford to see them, and there are plays that bring in an audience who have not been to theaters before and treat the experience the same way you would in a movie house. Bringing in crinkly bags of snacks that they open and rummage through during the play, talking to their companion ,going onto their phones. There is no sheet given out before hand as to what theater etiquette is expected. There is always a request to silence phones , but that is not always followed as you can see the lights popup through the theater.
I'm completely ignorant on the fan thing and didn't know it makes that much noise. The safety issue seems an incredible push.
I think the joy derived from taking offense is a major factor , but giving up the chance of $50 per seems a heavy price for that moment of self-righteous satisfaction. If my wife didn't get seriously seasick I'd look at $100 all inclusive cruise.
My son took his family on a carnival cruise out of New York last year. Their four kids were 7, 9 and twins 12. They have been raised in an orthodox Jewish home sheltered from the street language and culture of the world around them. We warned then about carnival
The cruise was a disaster for the kids. The black kids were unruly and fighting and every other word was f this f that etc.
This problem goes much deeper than what this writer is portraying. I’d go so far as to say it’s almost a whitewash of the issue. Carnival has dug themselves a deep hole.
I think she was being cautious in what is a tricky situation to discuss. It’s the teenagers and young adults who are going to be the problem. It really is an extension of Miami Beach party weekend on the boat and they came to party not to cruise. The spring break gatherings have become increasingly more difficult for cities to handle, and you can’t have people clear the area when you’re out at sea. That was predictable as they lowered the rates that much. No idea how they get out of this.
Yes, this is a very tricky issue to address and discuss. Thank you for recognizing that.
BTW please stop insulting Daytona Beach. It is a great year round vacation resort city which welcomes everyone. Once a year they have what’s called black bike week and then there are a couple of weeks of spring break all of which get pretty raucous but the police are very active and keep control.
Noted.
“taking offense has become a sport” speaks to lots of cultures these days- well said!
I’m thinkin’ eventually an Olympic event done much like gymnastics. Different categories and degrees of difficulty as some situations to find offense are more difficult to achieve and stick the landing.
My belief is there's a militant activism running through society that wishes to annihilate all boundaries between individuals, and even if one tries to go somewhere else, the militant will follow and harass the non-compliant. We see this with dudes in dresses refusing to accept neutral bathrooms. Their goal is getting a thrill from women not being allowed to get away from them. I suggest Carnival Cruise have different rules for different cruises. One cruise could be open to loud music, wild parties, etc. Another cruise could be family or elderly oriented with stricter rules.
The problem is how to maintain the quality of your brand as a whole when trying to appeal to two vastly different audiences?
I also presume different rules for different cruises is the answer, presuming the upset demographic is profitable. Have like a Carnival Classic line and a Carnival Party How You Want At Everyone Else's Expense line ...
Sending out a pre- cruise list of non-acceptable behavior would certainly bring about some slimy grievance chasing lawyer with a "civil rights" or "first amendment" action. Carnival needs to go back to smaller ships and higher prices.
I hope there's enough of us that would like and accept this approach that the brand would not be negatively affected. Wishful thinking?
The real question is how do you mitigate against stupidity?
Your idea is a sensible one. However, from Carnival‘s perspective, catering to the preferences of the harder partying demographic could be a safety and liability nightmare they don’t want to deal with.
Whoops, just said the same thing, but you took it a step further😉.
👏👏👏 A superb article that in a sane world would be in the New York Times or the Washington Post, Monica! I didn’t know about this story but sadly it doesn’t surprise me in this identity obsessed and racially divided country we live in today. Carnival Cruise Lines instituted common sense rules that have nothing to do with race or color but rather being courteous and considerate of other passengers. Being “ghetto” or “ratchet” has nothing to do with being black. I’ve met and observed people of all races who fit that description and black people who do not. Being loud, blaring rap music in the middle of the night, carrying around small personal fans that could injure others, smoking marijuana, etc. are all things that have nothing to do with being black but rather are just about being a decent human being.
Ironically, these rules actually are good for as Monica pointed out, other disadvantaged guests like the elderly, families with children or babies, those on the autism spectrum who might have sensory issues, or passengers who suffer from migraines for example. It is most certainly true that a totally neutral policy can have a disproportionate negative impact on a certain group. That is certainly valid but what is not valid to to extend that concept to personal behavior that effects the individual experience of others around them. Those two have nothing to do with each other. It’s hilarious how some online are having a stroke and acting like Carnival Cruise Lines just brought back racial segregation.
These new rules are fantastic and have zip to do with racism. We need to put a stop to the hypersensitivity and sense of entitlement that people in our society have these days. We need to stop seeing racism everywhere. Seeing racism in places where it doesn’t exist accomplishes nothing and helps no one. To the contrary, it’s quite destructive to our society and keeps minorities from being treated as individuals rather than as groups. On a side note, companies need to grow a spine and stop listening to the cranks on X and other social media platforms. As you said Monica, the people conflating certain behaviors with being black are actually the one’s being racist. They are perpetuating the very kind of racial stereotypes the heroes in the Civil Rights Movement fought against in the 1950s and 1960s. We need to do all we can as a society to stop with all these constant faux-racism controversies and crying bigotry every time people on X whine and complain about something trivial and throw around accusations of racial discrimination.
Here is a reading list I’ve prepared for anyone who may read this post so they can fight back against the hyper focus on race in American society we face today:
• Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America by John McWhorter
• Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America by John McWhorter
• A Testament of Hope: The Essential Writings and Speeches by Martin Luther King, Jr.
• Shame: How America’s Past Sins Have Polarized Our Country by Shelby Steele
• The End of Race Politics: Arguments for a Colorblind America by Coleman Hughes
• Social Justice Fallacies by Thomas Sowell
• Gods of the Upper Air: How a Circle of Renegade Anthropologists Reinvented Race, Sex, and Gender in the Twentieth Century by Charles King
• Zero Victim: Overcoming Injustice With a New Attitude by James E. Ward, Jr.
• The Raceless Antiracist: Why Ending Race is the Future of Antiracism by Sheena Mason
• Self-Portrait in Black and White: Unlearning Race by Thomas Chatterton Williams
• Racecraft: The Soul of Inequality in American Life by Barbara J. Fields and Karen E. Fields
• Passing Strange: A Gilded Age Tale of Love and Deception Across the Color Line by Martha A. Sandweiss
• Classified: The Untold Story of Racial Classification in America by David E. Bernstein
• Taboo: 10 Facts You Can’t Talk About by Wilfred Reilly
Nailed it Monica. Your analysis is spot-on and probably more generous that I would write. Lol
See i grew up poor and Black around Black people who were rachet before it was called rachet. But this mentality is way more widespread now than it was when I was growing up.
What offends me the most is something I've dealt with all my life as I've moved from poor to middle class: All Black people aren't the same yet Black people who defend this foolishness talk about as if Carnival is banning all Black people. This way of thinking has become more mainstream these days. I wouldn't never choose a Carnival cruise.
My wife and I went on a Royal Carribean cruise 15 years ago for our 15th anniversary. We heard about Carnival back then! Friends who knew we are Christian told us to avoid Carnival.
I respect Carnivals decision but as a former brand consultant, I would say they did a slight recalibration some years ago and 'Walmarted' their prices which is a race to the bottom. When a business lowers their prices really low to make more $$$, there is the potential to attract people with values are out of sync with their original audience. Wal Mart has done this and it's why Black friday shopping is usually a war zone at their stores. Much of the time, Target doesnt have this problem.
People choose Carnival because they are looking for excessive drinking, partying, loose sexual norms (pineapple anyone?) and lax standards on the cheap. This has been known for years. But Carnival is now seeing that this thrust by them during this time of polarization and racist pandering in American society is not helping them. As the pendulum is starting to swing back to a more conservative approach, Carnival is attempting to recalibrate but those addicted to identity politics are trying to prevent that. (Have you noticed that no high profile Democrats have touched this issue. That is telling.)
Amusement parks dealt with this same thing. They solved it by quietly pushing their prices back up some years ago and it solved most of the problem.
Thank you so much for your thoughts, Pastor Lee. We are definitely aligned. I was raised in a working class family that moved into the middle class, but I have some extended family who never made the trip. We always tried to distance ourselves from these elements because they didn’t reflect our values, or the values of most Black people. As you say, it’s so very sad that these values have proliferated and have now become associated with “Black identity,” and even deemed acceptable.
I am watching “The Gilded Age” on HBO and am struck by how different the Black community was after Reconstruction. We were vibrant, hard working, intelligent and ambitious. We had nuclear families and small businesses. We raised respectful and well-behaved children. My parents even recall the Black community being this way when they were growing up in the 50s.
But then something changed, and as far as I can tell it happened shortly after the Civil Rights Movement. Radical “civil rights” groups seemed to morph into gangs, and drugs flooded into Black communities (there are well-documented reports that this happened largely due to CIA operations).
The Black community has had to overcome a LOT. A helluva lot. We briefly recovered from slavery and we were starting to find our footing — but then we slipped, largely I believe to external players and forces. And we simply never recovered from that point on. Well-intentioned liberal policies encouraged and accelerated our community’s demise.
Knowing where we started, what was possible and how far we’ve fallen…brings tears to my eyes.
Agreed. The virtues of looking out for each other that sustained poor and working class Black communities since the late 60s in the NE U.S. have virtually disappeared. I would submit another piece of your historical analysis.
A Black underclass has always existed but because of segregation in the past, Blacks of various social classes lived in the same community. There was a mutual benefit especially for the lower classes. But after the Civil Rights movement and historic discriminatory laws were struck down, there was a White AND Black flight from big cities. The Black underclass grew in the 70s and 80s as a result. But the death knell was liberal welfare policies that further destroyed Black entrepreneurship and the Black family along with the Crack epidemic. Unfortunately I had a front row seat in North Philly and neighborhoods like mine either did not recover or gentrified. Its depressing to think about.
“A Black underclass has always existed but because of segregation in the past, Blacks of various social classes lived in the same community. There was a mutual benefit especially for the lower classes. But after the Civil Rights movement and historic discriminatory laws were struck down, there was a White AND Black flight from big cities. The Black underclass grew in the 70s and 80s as a result.”
Omg, you nailed it. That’s exactly what happened! Someone needs to write a book about this very issue: it takes a village to rehabilitate an enslaved race. Once upon a time, we had the resources to do that, but class mobility and Civil Rights — while desirable and well-intentioned — sabotaged out community support. Amazing insight, my friend.
I am concerned that urbanization and modern transit has allowed all classes to self select and effectively ghettoize, to the detriment of most communities. Far too much homogeneity in ethnicity, class, taste, religion, everything, in siloed communities and estates. And, most people in these places are highly mobile and don't form deep, lasting attachments. The death of mega malla and rise in online shopping means we don't even shop in the same places any more.
Small towns, at least before they died, meant everyone knew people from almost all backgrounds and walks of life. There may have been a wrong side of the tracks, but I'm truly small towns, it's only ever as couple of blocks away. Which means people are forced to see how others live, and interact with them, and ideally form opinions of them based on their personal qualities rather than a stereotype.
This rarely happens in large urban areas today. And less and less as time goes on. Now we fracture into opinion and interest based online communities and venture out less often. Really, our communities are those we engage with online, and those we work with. Neither provide a good substitute for a broader community.
Really excellent points, James. I agree there seems to be a class element at work here that has affected Black and White communities and led to a steady widening gap of culture and decorum. And you’re spot on about small towns and the “wrong” side of the tracks. Years ago, people on both sides of the tracks still knew and in some ways interacted with each other. But that doesn’t happen anymore. Now people of different classes often live many miles away from each other.
Do you know if anyone has addressed this issue in a book or article? I find the implications fascinating. It explains so much of the social deterioration we’re seeing.
No, I sadly only read substack these days. I'm not aware of this issue being discussed widely; I'm glad to see you and Pastor Tee touching on it!
Well said. I live in Philly and see exactly what you said.
I have had limited contact with black people in my life, but I have observed that they seem to often be much more of their place and community than others, with more time dedicated to relationships that are less transactional. Part of that may be cultural, part of that may be what happens when poverty and lack of opportunity keep people where they were born.
I responded further down thread with my thoughts, similar to yours, on fracturing of communities in general. Your insights are fascinating.
Pineapple???
Reliable word on the street on Carnival cruises is if you see someone wearing anything with a pineapple on it or a pineapple on the cabin door, they are swingers looking for action.
Oh. Thanks for the explanation.
How sad our world has become.
Agreed.
I hadnt heard about any of this. Thank you. As you note the issues here are more about how we live with and respect one another than behavior on a cruise. Stereotyping should never be accepted.
I couldn't agree more. Stereotyping is ALWAYS wrong, as is engaging in behavior that fuels negative sterotypes.
You say 'stereotyping', I say 'recognizing patterns of behavior'. You say 'engaging in behavior that fuels negative stereotypes', I say 'acting ghetto'.
Stereotyping is basic human psychology. It's a shortcut meant to protect us from danger when reaction time isn't fast enough. It provides a valuable survival mechanism. There is no way to put an end to it.
I agree with you to an extent. I live in a rural area and notice that animals (particularly those who are likely to be prey) “stereotype” all the time when they attempt to avoid predators. Ultimately, humans are just higher level animals, so I understand that some degree of stereotyping is inevitable for the reason you give.
But greed, list, jealousy, anger, etc are also part of basic human psychology. As humans, I think our goal should be to behave a higher level than most animals — resisting the hard wiring that makes us behave badly or that doesn’t serve us. We’re not living in caves and beating competing tribes off with clubs and sticks anymore. We don’t need to engage in Stone Age stereotyping to protect ourselves from danger. There’s a difference between stereotyping someone walking behind you when you’re alone on a city street at night and stereotyping when you’re hiring someone for a job. There’s a survival instinct at play in the former, but not the latter.
Every emotion you have is the result of millions of years of evolution, and serve a purpose. We haven't outgrown the need for any of them, even if being civilized means we don't automatically react to them. And society isn't nearly as civilized as you seem to think; it's a very thin veneer that will disappear with very little stimulus.
But the advances we have achieved rapidly are very much due to our ability to control our instincts to a large degree, and learn to look beyond stereotypes. It has left us at a state of cultural evolution that is at odds with our base instincts. True, we can regress very quickly. But I think we'd all much rather not, and attempt to treat each other on considered merits rather than base instincts.
This is what bothers me about the Carnival situation: people chose to go on a vacation, no one was in danger, and chaos was chosen to the detriment of everyone. This policy is not discriminatory, it is a reminder that we have personal autonomy over ourselves.
Good analysis. Speaker phone and Bluetooth speakers should be banned in every public space, not just Carnival Cruises.
Absolutely, yes!
People in bathroom stalls with their speaker blaring are the worst. For crying out loud, I just want some peace and quiet.
Oof. That has happened once or twice and I just turn mine on max volume. They might deserve some wet toilet paper over the stall door too
AMEN TO THAT!!
That the Section 8 cruise community will use the "race card" to defend their incivility and barbarity is no surprise. It's what they've been doing for decades. Just look at the YT videos at airports and restaurants.
From a British perspective this is interesting, as apart from a few music events in a few cities this new "I do what I like" behaviour is class-coded here, not race-coded.
So on our beaches, and our budget airlines, lots of problems with excess drinking, noise, explicit sexual behaviour, aggressive behaviour if challenged, all from what we would call "chavs", the working-class men and women (of any race but majority white) who flaunt their ignorance and push all the boundaries. The outrage is part of the fun.
Funny thing, it used to be the upper-class young men who would behave appallingly in public, drinking to excess, groping waitresses and urinating in the street, only to say "don't you know who I am?" if challenged by any authority. The chavs however, will start shouting about their "human rights" being denied, as their entitlement is based on their sense that society owes them whatever they fancy because they are "ordinary workers" (many don't work). These are the people who come to the public park, eat and drink all day, and then leave every bit of rubbish behind them. They are loathed.
Re the music events, some Black artists have been denied music licenses here because their fans are habitually violent and their events often involve fighting and stabbings. The "gangsta" culture travels.
The "oppression olympics" hands out medals of entitlement. The more 'oppressed' you are, the more entitlement you carry. Kinda weird when you think about it.
Social media and reality TV is imposing a new standard on the issue of public behavior. Instead of people expecting they must defer to a baseline of conduct which allows everyone to have the peaceful enjoyment of public spaces, they are overtly reacting should anything at all upset their apple cart. People, usually under the age of 40, expect that anything which offends their subjective sensibilities is the greatest possible outrage!
They take everything personally. They don't see that anyone else has any rights. This is leading to a lot of unnecessary conflict and drama. But online behavior thrives on unnecessary conflict and drama. I wonder how many young people finding themselves in a bind in the real world don't realize they got in that bind because the online standard is completely unworkable in real life.
This is so true! Having worked in business affairs at a cable network for many years (where I helped creative execs produce unscripted/reality programming), I can attest that networks actively sought out low class behavior on these shows. The more loud, crass and embarassing participants were, the better. They found it funny and entertaining to watch these people degrade themselves and each other. Shocking and outrageous behavior drew eyeballs -- especially in the Black community -- and that's all that really mattered. In the effort to "cater" to a Black audience, I felt the network was actually reinforcing negative stereotypes and undermining efforts to advance opportunity. As the only senior Black executive on the team, I remember raising my concerns and having them ignored. It was incredibly frustrating and ultimately one of the reasons I left the network.
The bigger picture: creative execs eventually extended this same low class, uncouth, foul-mouthed model to White participants. Looking back, I think reality TV did tremendous damage to our society, especially among young people who look to Hollywood and pop culture for guidance on behavior, habits, values, etc. Hollywood really needs to take responsibility for the negative influence it's had on our soicety, at large. That's why it irks me when they take the moral high ground and insist on DEI standards that often sabotage the work they're claiming to do. I think leaders in media/entertainment are too out of touch to have such positions of power and influence on our culture. Whether they realize it or not, they're dangerous.
The obvious solution is for Carnival to raise prices for certain cruises and keep them low for other ones. Let disposable income do the sorting.
The objections to the new rules as "anti-black" are EXTREMELY racist! As if "black" people are incapable of behaving like adults. With friends like these...
Very well written article. I was on one Carnival cruise back in 2008 as part of my honeymoon and have never cruised since or desired to. The atmosphere was very chill and quiet but it still was not my thing. Do you see this as similar to what some Florida cities have tried to enact after decades of spring break trashing? My last spring break trip as a college kid was 1996. Some of those big named cities of the early 90’s are no longer spring break destination spots because of stricter enactment of laws from what I understand. As to the new Carnival conduct standards, the thought of “spring break on a ship in the middle of the sea” in 2025 or 2026 is probably the last thing I’d ever want to experience if I wanted to have a family vacation.
Same! Carnival Cruise for my honeymoon in 2002 and never been on a cruise since. I’m no prude and I love a couple glasses of wine, but holy cow the over-the-top drunkenness on the cruise was disgusting to me.
Not unlike Freaknik in Atlanta.
As long as the "rules" are applied and enforced equitably ship wide, without regard to race and/or gender; they seem like fairly implemented guidelines for civil behavior.
Regarding cannabis; weed ain't legal in quite a few jurisdictions. Penalties can be much more severe than in the USA.
Culture matters.
I wonder where culture comes from...
Good question, I'm sure you could Google a learned explanation. I would suggest it comes from without and within. What traditions did we grow up with, what beliefs about god, or God, what beliefs about man, about pain and suffering, about ethics. From within; how does a person answer those questions based on their own questioning, based on response to their own internal conscience. There are few outliers in any homogeneous society
It is easier to see the results of culture, and why it matters.
It was rhetorical; culture is downstream of genetics. Even in similar scenarios, different peoples react differently.
I disagree with the genetic connection. The correlation exists.
The classic lay position: every organism on Earth undergoes speication but humans. Genetics play no part in our development, somehow.
Might be true if you're a materialist; I'm not. Certainly, genetics plays a role in many things, including skin and hair color, and intelligence. That's a big leap from assigning fate to moral issues. I have far more respect for people than that because I believe, and evidence supports, that people are endowed by their Creator with moral intuition. We all know basic right and wrong. Acceptance or rejection of that drives the moral components of culture. No one is genetically coded to be a thief, a murderer or an asshole.